BUILD

SUCCEED

David DeRemer:  Yeah. All right. Cool. Um, well, hi Carson. How's it

Carsten Wierwille: Hey David, how are you?

David DeRemer: I'm doing, doing well, you know, it's a pretty hot here. Are you in a, where are you these days

Carsten Wierwille: I'm currently in Delaware.

David DeRemer: currently in Delaware? Oh, so hitting the beach later.

Carsten Wierwille: I hope so.

David DeRemer: Yeah. Nice. Cool. Um, well, thanks so much for joining. Um, you know, as you know, this is our, our new podcast we're doing here and, um, known you for a really long time.

So it's a honor for me to be able to have you as one of our, Um, so to get us going, um, I just wanted to ask you a kind of more general question of like, what have you been thinking about lately? Like what's been on your mind? What are some things you've been kind of getting into or kind of really catching your attention these days?

Carsten Wierwille: Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about habits lately. Um, in the context of, you know, me realizing that my to do lists get longer every day, and just like many people, I start every year with New Year's resolutions. You know, I want to lose 10 pounds. You want to call your mom more often than you realize by January 15. 

It's all a lost cause, right? And so, and I've been thinking about more, how do I get more into the habits to do the things that I want to be doing on a regular basis that are important to me. And you and I have been talking about this as well. And so I sort of a little bit later discovered James Clear's work.

He wrote a book, I think in 90, in 2018 called Atomic Habits, where he basically says, if you want to make big changes, you have to focus on incremental improvements. And rather than focusing on the output, lose 10 pounds. You focus on the process. So what are the things you're doing every day? If only for two minutes and maybe also the underlying identity, because often we think, well, I can't be going to the gym because I'm not an athlete or I can't be more organized because that's just not who I am.

I'm a creative person. And if you just start changing this on a, on a small, in a small way, by just changing things you do for two minutes, you know, maybe you just spent two minutes every day to become more organized, then you will see over time how that affects the outcome. And so I think that's relevant for my personal life, but it's also  relevant for what I'm doing with a lot of founders, because I'm realizing that a lot of founders have gotten into habits.

Maybe they were good habits initially, but then as the business changes, maybe that it's not such a great habit anymore.

David DeRemer: Yeah, it's um, it's a very difficult thing to do, um, uh, I don't think, uh, naturally humans are in some ways like conditioned this way. I think there are people who are, who maybe are, who are very rigorous in their approach. Sometimes it can be too much, right? Um, but there's definitely the, Oh, well, I don't need to go to the gym.

I'll just take a pill, uh, or kind of the quick things or the influencer culture of just like, yada, yada, yada, you'll get to the big result, 

you 

Carsten Wierwille: Yeah, and I think, I think what Claire would say to you is just, you just have to make it easy. You have to make it fun. So I have, I had various attempts to learn a foreign language and I've tossed around, played around with, with Duolingo and other things over the years. But I never, it never really stuck with me.

And so what I'm doing now is I get up, I have a cup of coffee, and I just try to do this for three or four minutes. And then, of course, they're very good at gamifying it,  you don't want to lose your streak and all of that, but the core is to basically say, I'm going to do this every day when I have my coffee.

So it's pleasurable because I'm enjoying my coffee. And by the way, I'm doing some Spanish on the side. I think you can apply that to many other things. You could apply that to more mundane things like doing your expense report. Or other boring things that you don't want to be doing, but you know, you have to do them.

David DeRemer: maybe this is one of those things when you hear those people say, like, oh, it's a 10 year overnight success or one of those types of stories where it's like, it might look like something went fast or someone had some big break, but really it's a long time of sustained ongoing effort, you know, to be focused on these things. 

Carsten Wierwille: That's right. And I think it's easy if you happen to be a disciplined person to begin with, but if you're more, more interested in ideas and doing something new, then it's much harder.

David DeRemer: Yeah, no, I can relate. Um, I have a bit of a problem with prioritization myself. So, but, so let's, uh, let's get into that. So you're saying it's, um, in your, uh, this relevant to your current work. So why don't you give us a, an intro? Like what is the current  work and how did you get to where you are today?

Carsten Wierwille: Yeah, so I've spent my career at the intersection of design technology business. I've Worked in digital product companies pretty much since the Internet came about. Um, and I sort of stumbled into that. I was actually trained as a political scientist. I think I was destined to be a frustrated bureaucrat in a public administration somewhere in Germany where I grew up.

Or maybe with some luck, a high school civics teacher, um, but I sort of wasn't quite fulfilled with that. And then the Internet came about and I realized, oh, there was a whole new line of work. And so I've been working in that line of work for, for all of my career initially as a project manager, then as a general manager, ultimately as a CEO.

And so what I'm doing now is I'm currently focusing on advising. And, and consulting founders and leaders in digital product companies. And my sort of ambition is to, my goal is to be the kind of advisor that I  always wish I had. So I, I'm not an artist. I don't have a personal mission to express. I get a lot of my energy vicariously from helping others.

And so I'm trying to help others to realize their creative ambition. The best way I can do that is to help them work through the various questions that they have from, um, what should I be doing every day to are we going to sell the company? Uh, et cetera, et cetera.

David DeRemer: Yeah, because I mean, pretty much your whole career has been with consulting businesses. I mean, I know you and I

even have a shared experience at Accenture back in the day. Um, so, and worked at a lot of different places. I wonder if, um, yeah, I kind of relate to you in a lot of ways there, having been a kind of career consultant myself with a couple of detours here and there, but. Uh, you, you do kind of learn the, the, you become an expert at helping other people with their problems. Um, as opposed to being like super focused on a particular product vision or a particular service vision. Um, and I guess that sort of helped you to get to be where you are today to really do  that for yourself, for these

Carsten Wierwille: Well, you have to enjoy that. I mean, and you have to be able to sort of take yourself out of it. If you, if you want to create something and you're very kind of focused on how it's done and then very fixed in your ways, you're not going to be happy in a consultative way. And I know, I know a lot of people that might start more in a consultative environment than ultimately go create their own thing because they would rather be their boss and do things their way.

David DeRemer: Yeah, it also leads to something that I affectionately call professional ADD, which is you get the ability to, um, move around. You can kind of focus on different things and see so many different problems, right? So for me personally, it's very hard for, for me to focus on only one product, right? Or one particular market opportunity.

And I think consulting gives you a lot of perspective. So that's why I'm excited to have you here as well. Cause I think having somebody like yourself who has had such a career and observing so many projects, So many different types of leaders, companies, themes, trends, uh, going all the way back to early days of the internet to where we are today  with AI and other things.

Um, I think that you can see a lot of perspective, uh, when you get to see so many different things. But if I, if I, if I recall it, you also have a background in political science. Is that correct? Going all the way back to your,

Carsten Wierwille: Yes. Yes. That's what I studied.

David DeRemer: yeah. And so is there anything relevant from that experience to your work?

Carsten Wierwille: I used to think that there wasn't really. Um, but I think lately I've been thinking about that some more in my, in my last role as a CEO for us two studios, a digital product studio, I helped to convert the company from founder led and founder owned to employee owned. And it actually did bring me back to things that I used to study.

So it's, it sounds a bit obscure, but I, I studied with a woman named Lynn Ostrom, who was the first woman who ever won the Nobel prize in economics. Even though she was actually technically a political scientist, and she was very interested in what, uh, without getting too nerdy here, what economists call common pool resources.

So things like fisheries or  farmland that is shared by farmers. So this is the idea of a finite resource. And then you have a bunch of people that have access to it. You can't really control their access. And so economic theory, traditional economic theory will tell you that's not going to work. It inevitably leads to overfishing and overuse and ultimately the destruction of the asset.

And she firmly believed that, that it was possible and has been possible for a long time. If you combine the right kind of economic incentives with the right kind of cultures and norms. And so it was relevant for us to employ ownership because the company was converted into a trust. So, in the US, typically, the model that we have for employee ownership is shares, right?

So you have a certain number of Facebook shares or whatever it may be, but in this case, everybody's an owner in a trust and it creates exactly those common pool problems, common pool resource problems. And so it was actually in a sort of abstract way, quite relevant for, um, for what we were doing.

David DeRemer: Interesting. So it's that combination of incentives plus culture.  That creates that sort of 

Carsten Wierwille: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You want to create incentives and disincentives, right? So you want to create, for example, disincentives for overfishing, but you also want to give the people the sense that they're working towards a shared goal rather than just their own goal.

David DeRemer: Right. I think a lot these days, especially, um, a lot of companies have are very good at incentives. You know, they're very good at compensation structures, goals, OKRs, you know, bonuses, things like that. I think, uh, it's that combination of culture that sounds really interesting there. Um, something we believe a lot in here at VGV, but, uh, you know, I know a lot of companies are talking more and more about this these days, sort of the impact of culture on the success of a team. Um, was there something unique about the culture of, of us two that helped you to kind of navigate that? 

Carsten Wierwille: I struggle to answer this because I think when you're inside a company, it always feels like that culture is unique. And then over time, you realize that they're probably more shared cultures. I think there's probably a lot of companies like that.  That, um, I mean, I would say even, even VGV, I think, has some of those cultural elements where you, you sort of give teams the, the power to self organize and the teams demand that kind of authority as well.

And, and where people try to do a good job for, for their own right, rather than just for, for a reward. And I think that's something that I've, I've always, um, believed in that was, it's always been important to me.

David DeRemer: Amazing. So, so now you've, um, left us to, um, your CEO there and you had a long career and variety of well known creative agencies, and now you're advising, uh, founders and leaders. Is it just creative agencies you're advising, uh, leaders of those or product companies as well,

Carsten Wierwille: I would say it's more broadly, um, digital product companies, and the majority of those are providing services, whether they're tech services or design or strategy services. Some of them are also early, uh, ventures, early product companies, and it's really more about questions of product market fit or, or any of  the other thousand questions that come up when you start a business.

David DeRemer: Right. And so when you look at that product market fit, are there some thematic learnings you've already been observing, uh, in today's world around, um, how leaders are addressing product development or, or how they're

developing their own company cultures?

Carsten Wierwille: I mean, it's, it's, it's a broad question. I'm not sure I have a general answer. Um, particularly when I think when you're an early startup, I think that's probably the, the, the, the simplest observation that I can share is that virtually every founder, every startup tries to do too much. So, so that's, that's almost always a good thing to ask is how can you do more with less?

David DeRemer: Right. That gets back to the atomic habits, I guess. Right. It's like,

how do you have a roadmap there and not bite off too much and just jump ahead to the glory?

Yeah. Well, it's, it's not easy. I can, I can attest to that firsthand. It's,  um, you got a lot of competing priorities, so how can you prioritize? Like when you're thinking about, uh, uh, your team or your, your company growth or, or your product, you know, what would you recommend people to kind of help figure out how to prioritize what matters?

Carsten Wierwille: mean, I think the, um, the way I used to think about it, um, during my time at us, too, was I used to think about it in terms of profit, people and purpose. Um, and that was just an easy way to remember, because I had 3P's. The profit, of course, if you're a service provider runs through, um, also if you're a product company, it runs through, um, the customers that you have.

It just doesn't start with the P, but it starts with, are you doing something that is worth doing that anybody's willing to pay for? Um, and so you want to get that right and that's obviously what all the businesses are focusing on. Um, particularly when you, when you start a business and even more so when you start a  business that's based on talent.

More than anything, you have to think about what kind of people do, do I want to hire and nurture and how do I want these people to interact with one another, particularly when I'm not in the room. And then I think the last one, I think is becoming more and more, more and more important for the world at large, but also for the people that are working in companies, which is what is the larger purpose other than making money.

David DeRemer: Hmm. That's a tough one. And right. Cause the, uh, have you seen more and more companies really embracing that purpose side of it? Or do you, and do you think it's more of the smaller entrepreneurial companies doing that? Or do you see it on the enterprise 

scale? 

Carsten Wierwille: I think I think you see it on the enterprise scale. Um, it, the urgency of the topic sort of comes and goes a little bit with the economic cycle. So it's, it's easier to talk about purpose when you make a lot of money when the shareholders are unhappy, and then the pendulum tends to swing back to the profit a bit more.

But I think, I think there's more and more frameworks for that now. And it's more rigorous as  well. And it doesn't have to be. I think the, the old notion is sort of you, you make money and then you do a little bit of corporate social Uh, purpose sort of sees our work to comment to compliment that. And I think I think increasingly company trying to, uh, provide more holistic approach.

So, for example, um, a lot of businesses have become a B Corp, which means that you actually legally commit to doing more than just, um, making money. We did this at us too as well. And, um, it's essentially a certification that comes with a set of questions and a really long spreadsheet. And you only, you have to do this once.

It's pretty tough in order to get the certification. And, um, then you will have to be recertified every few years and you will only be recertified if you get better and better

and it keeps you honest. It keeps you honest across. It's, it's not just fluffy. So there's a bunch of like very specific things that are being looked at from, you know, the governance of your business, which is important, but  also probably boring to, you know, where you source the, um, lunch that you buy for your cafeteria and so on and so forth.

And it allows you to provide a framework that is not unlike a, a, um, a set of KPIs that you might use on the operational financial level for the company that you can work against.

So 

David DeRemer: think. 

Carsten Wierwille: see over time.

David DeRemer: Yeah, yeah, sorry.

No, I was just going to say that, um, I think it's fascinating to hear that direction and see things emerge like that. I also think, um, or I wonder if the proliferation of more remote work where people kind of have a lot more choice of where they could maybe work and their opportunities, um, whether or not this will make some of these choices of companies to invest in things like purpose, um, strategically very relevant, you know, cause if you're competing, if I have a lot more job options because I can work remotely. And I'm competing between a couple of firms that have, uh, similar compensation. You know, maybe I'm going to go after the one that's more  aligned with the purpose. I believe in, um, or at least a company that is more, uh, interested in pursuing purpose. So I wonder if that will continue to push in those areas.

Carsten Wierwille: It's also a potential overlay for the types of business that you pursue, whether you think that the things that you are making money with are in line with your values and the things that are meaningful to you.

David DeRemer: yeah, well, and as

leaders to take stands right on sometime, especially in consulting business. I remember a very specific, specific example with the two of us, um, a long time ago and it was a client that, uh, where we had to fire a client if you, or you fired the client actually. Um, and it

was, and yeah, it was, it was an industry that was, uh, you know, it was, it was a compromised industry, you know, so sometimes I think leadership has to make that choice as well to really show what you stand for, um, and not make the choice of profit, um, or, or

dollars. Yeah.

Carsten Wierwille: Yeah. I mean, I typically, I find myself more arguing on the other side because I have to a lot of situations where people have challenged you. Why are we working with this company, with this brand? Do they  reflect our values? And, um, I think there's sort of a misunderstanding there where doing business with a company doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with every single decision that they make, or that you even like them, right?

If you're going to go and get a haircut this afternoon, are you going to ask the barber if, if they share all of your political values? Probably not, right?

In that moment, what's more important for you is that you're going to look good afterwards.

And I think on an ethical level, for me, the important question is always, is the work we're doing going to make the world a little bit better or a little bit worse?

We can't possibly, if you're working with Google, let's say, or any other number of company that has hundreds of thousands of employees, those hundreds of thousands of employees make numerous decisions every day. Who am I to evaluate that? Right? I mean, eventually we might, I think that we're beginning to see more, more frameworks, just like the way there's, um, third parties that evaluate credit risk.

There's people that are trying to do more an  evaluation of corporate actions based on ethics, but it's very difficult to do. And, and I am not in a position to judge whether a company is good or evil. I don't really want to. The best thing I can possibly do is try to assess to the best of my ability that the things that I'm going to be doing on a project are going to make the world a little bit better, a little bit worse.

David DeRemer: That's really good advice, and I think you could expand that notion to any number of things, right? It's purpose, but

also, like, is it the right feature for the user? Are we improving our execution culture, uh, on our team? Or, uh, I think, just, are we making it a little better? You know, it's, uh, it sounds obvious in retrospect, but I think probably a lot of companies are out there doing things, and teams are doing things where no one understands if what they're doing is actually making it any better.

What, what strategies have you adopted as a leader over the years, um, to help kind of navigate some of those conversations or motivate your teams and your employees around some of these? Like, I know in our interaction, oftentimes you've taken the role of like a skeptic in a conversation, right? Kind of like provoke  more conversation or dig into an issue.

Um, uh, what, what strategies like that have you found are useful, um, to help people really get to the meat of an issue?

Carsten Wierwille: You know, I think people tend to have very strong opinions, and they often go into a difficult conversation, either afraid, because they might be speaking with somebody that has more authority than them, and they don't want to be disciplined, or, um, they go into it combative, and they, they're looking for evidence that supports their, their theory or their assumptions.

So I think the best thing you can do, and this is true, not just for, I think, a business context, for a personal context as well. Is to help the person understand where you're coming from or where other people might be coming from to create some basic empathy. And I think if you're in any kind of client service role, having the empathy for a client is essential and equally, you can't take it for granted.

I think  people sometimes are going, why are they asking us to do things? This is just stupid. And so you have to get teams to understand or try to understand why a client wants to do certain things. It doesn't necessarily mean you agree. And sometimes you want to push back. But the starting point has to be why are we being asked is what's the context?

What's the background? Where does this individual come from? Or what is the culture and the background for this company?

David DeRemer: And do you ask those same questions of the leaders you advise as well? Have you been able to translate that to your client relationship skill, to helping someone who's not necessarily a client in that regard, that you're doing a service for them, but you're a coach or mentor?

Carsten Wierwille: Yeah, and I think often in that context, um, I, I ask founders to reflect on their own role. I, I find the, one of the things that I'm very interested in is to combine the question of what should the business be doing and what should the founder be doing?

Because often the, those 2 are quite related and it's,  it's often difficult for founders to have this conversation.

You know, they might, they might want to, at some point decide that they want to sell the business and they go to a banker and broker. Right. Or, or maybe they're trying to be more productive and maybe they talk to an executive coach. But the question of how those things are related, um, you know, often the people that I'm talking to are working with.

Are tired, and then because they're tired, they're thinking of, do we sell the business or do we bring someone else in here, but the fatigue might be related to what they're doing every day. And so often selling is not the best answer. It's often it goes back to the question of why did you start this company?

What motivated you? What, what were the highlights of your time here? And how can you go back to that? Or how can you rekindle the passion for work and for your company in a different way? Um, rather than looking for kind of an easy way out

and and if you know, if it's just a matter of, you know what, I, I've done this long enough.

I want to do something else.  I want to take some money off the table. I want to start spending more time at the beach. More power to you. Then let's talk about how we make that happen.

David DeRemer: Well, I think that, um, the insight you're giving there and that advice, I think it applies to anybody no matter where they are in their career. Cause I think that same like story arc you just went through, maybe a different situation if you're not a founder, but you know, you're somebody who's been in a role for three or four years.

There's a lot of red tape and bureaucracy. There's some personalities that are difficult. There's mundane routine things. You're tasked with some big initiative, new project or new product development effort. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you got to keep that passion. You got to keep that energy, you know?

And so I think, uh, it's good advice to kind of think about how do you reflect around what is it that you're doing every day that is getting in the way of that passion? Um, and maybe can you change your frame a little bit and get some help or talk to a coach? Um,

I think, I think I was just, uh, Reflecting not just in my experience as a founder, but as an employee and as a, as a member of other teams, and even our, uh, the people that we have on our team.

And as you know, people go through these journeys,  you know, no matter where they are in their career. And it's interesting to kind of keep that focus. Um, well, you also gave some advice that I thought was really interesting. One point at one point around sort of how to manage people, right. That I just thought was really interesting.

Sort of that going against the grain mentality, right. I'm a, I tend to personally tend to be a very, um. Ideas driven person, yeah. And I think like, um, one thing that you've helped me with that I'm curious if you've helped others is like injecting that a little bit of like, like skepticism to some of this stuff.

And like, I really focusing on the risk, um, versus like flipping that toggle back the other way when people are feeling a little lost or. We're like kind of getting them back on, on paths that are successful for them. Um, I was just wondering if maybe you could tell us a little bit more about some of your, how do you manage those two things where people have like very overconfident opinions versus when they're a little lost.

Um, how do you get people to, to be back on track?

Carsten Wierwille: And we're all very social animals. And so we, we kind of get into these hurt into the herd mentality, right? If a company is doing  well, then everybody feels very confident, sometimes overly confident, if there are challenges in the market, you can sort of get into this kind of negative mindset. And I think often as a, as a leader, it's helpful to be, to try to take a step back, but also a bit of be a bit of a contrarian.

So I often try to. I don't want to say stifle, but, but, but maybe challenge some of the optimism when things are good and when things are not going great and everybody thinks the world is ending, to emphasize the opportunity. That often exists, particularly in the downturn. So I think the skeptic part comes more when I say kept skeptic.

I mean, there's more in a less than a much anyway and more in the sort of philosophical Greek tradition of, of not trusting the facts and the information that you have in front of you because often you tell yourself the story that you want to hear or you want to believe. And the skeptic in me is always saying, well, do I really know what's going on?

Do I really know why clients are buying or not buying our product?  And so the, I think the skeptic pushes me towards getting closer to the buyer, to the customer or prospect. Um, but I think it's often good, um, when you are in a leadership role to try to be a bit of a contrarian and work against the grain when it comes to the mood, the prevailing mood of the moment.

David DeRemer: I would think that would help to identify some of those atomic habits too, right? If we're like all super motivated, really happy, mission driven, we've got some big, bold ambition and we're just forging ahead. Sometimes you need to kind of take a step back and think, are you actually doing the hard little things along the way to get there?

You can't just jump ahead. So that's,

Carsten Wierwille: That's true.

That's true. Yeah. I mean, I think you. As a competitive person, I think a lot of people that work in business have a competitive streak. You have to, your mood can often depend on whatever happened this week or this morning. So, if you lost the deal, you're going to get frustrated or maybe angry at your colleagues.

If you want, you think you're on top of the world. Yeah, going to be the  next Elon Musk.

And so the, I think one, one habit that I like a lot is to sort of take a pulse, take a measurement. At the same time every week. So Friday 3 o'clock, I look at a certain set of data,

but that's the forecast or it's, um, I don't know, sales day or whatever it is.

If you do this over a period of time, you can kind of look at the patterns and you, you sort of balances things out a little bit and you're less, you're less victim to whatever happened last in your life or what happened last in your life. In your sales pipeline.

David DeRemer: It's not an easy thing to do to separate those things and kind of look at it, uh, objectively it's, uh, you know, I think anybody in their career when they're, they're doing interesting things with deadlines and objectives and goals, it's a rollercoaster up and down, you know, but I think it's,

it's

important to like, I, you know, You're like, uh, identify that, like, you know, the, or a thing I've often say is like, you need a valley to have a  peak, you know, you, the rollercoaster doesn't just constantly enjoy the fun part.

Right. Um, it's got to clink up and climb the mountain before it can go down. 

So. 

Carsten Wierwille: No, and it's that is very taxing, particularly on on on early stage companies, right? You, I just last week had a conversation with, um, with the founder and they were just about to kick off their first project and they were so excited and they had work lined up for a year and it seems like finally there was proof that what they, what they were wanting, what they were going to do had merit.

And then for for a reason that had absolutely nothing to do with them. Or even the client, the client that they were talking to, the whole thing fell apart. And then you sort of fall back into the valley of despair. You have to have something that sustains yourself in that situation. And I think a lot of that you have to find in yourself and hopefully in your personal life, your family and things that are arguably a lot more important than the business.

But I think  that can be also habits and routines to sort of shield yourself a little bit from, um, from the roller coaster ride. I

David DeRemer: Yeah, so I just want to maybe change tacks a little bit. Just, um, thinking about the actual products and the tech initiatives themselves. Like we talked a lot about the teams and some of the culture and the leadership you and you've observed and, you know, been aware of or participated in so many. Projects and, uh, tech initiatives from your time at all to your, you know, in your various consultancies that you've worked at, um, across many iterations of internet and mobile and all kinds of growth and all these things. Why? Why do you think that some companies or some products or tech initiatives succeed when others don't?

Is there something kind of unique to certain things that you've, when you look back, you see there is a theme that themes that kind of companies or, or teams or products that match this kind of pattern tend to be more successful? Is there  anything like that that's popped up?

Carsten Wierwille: think for the last decade or maybe more there's been sort of an obsession with disruption and transformation and innovation. I think doing things dramatically different and I'm, I'm, I think more often than not those things never work, don't work. I, I think that tech initiatives or, or possibly any initiative is more successful if it amplifies something that already exists.

It amplifies beliefs, it amplifies practices. So if you are an operationally focused company and you are engaging in, you know, a revamp of your mobile app, whatever it may be, chances are that if that mobile app amplifies and emphasizes your operational excellence, then it's probably going to be successful.

If, if that app all of a sudden is meant to be more about innovation or  a customer intimacy that you never had, it's probably not going to work. So, I'm not saying it can't work, but I think in general, it's easier to do the things you're already doing well better than to try to get good at the things you suck at.

That's true for us as individuals, but it's also true for companies.

So particularly in pre digital businesses, so I'm not talking about the Silicon Valley, but retailers, health care companies and the like. There's still traces of the old IT versus business conflict, typically. And so then you, um, you might have a more operationally focused tech team.

You have maybe on the marketing side, a more innovation focused team. And there's constantly this back and forth between trying to disrupt and innovate and do all those things that are important and then, and then this idea of, of kind of maintaining the status quo. And that can be a kind of an uneasy back and forth that if it doesn't get resolved, you're probably not going to make a lot of progress. 

So I think you have to agree on what are we good at? Where do we play? What can we realistically make a dent? And I think if technology serves to amplify that, you're going to be more successful.

David DeRemer: It's very insightful. Uh, in the, in the startup world, I think a lot of people look for the home run, you know? Where's the big market opportunity and, you know, but why? What's that belief or connection that you have? So I think kind of grounding it in those things that, you know, I think that's just a very good way to put it.

Like, like you were saying, if you're operational, then, then playing to your strengths, uh, is, is probably going to work well if you try to, if you're very buttoned up, rigorous, operationally driven company, and you're trying to do something really innovative and loose and disruptive, it's gonna not align with your culture and you're probably going to face some, some, Uh, headwinds there, like

do the, is that company culture that drives that the leadership or the sort of like how a project is set up?

I mean, you've obviously worked in a consulting context. So a lot of these are programs that have come to a partner,  right? And by the time you engage a partner, like, why are they coming to a partner, um, in some of these situations and what's the role of a, of a partner maybe to help with that to be more successful?

Carsten Wierwille: So I think there are really 2 questions, right? Why, why, where are these things manifest themselves? Is it culture? Is it incentives? Is it organization? It's all of them. And I think it's often all of the above. I, I worked once with a, a global, um, quick service restaurant leader. On on their global digital digital initiatives, and they have more of a franchise organization in which really the franchisees had a great deal of authority in terms of what's put on the menu and how you price it.

And there was this idea that from headquarters, you created a global digital platform. You can imagine how well that went. So if you have a, but so that was reflected in incentives and culture and muscle memory, basically every aspect of the business, and it was never going to work. It would have only worked  if the digital platform had been enabling, but it had protected the decision making authority at the franchise level, and that didn't happen.

And so, as a result, I think it was kind of a wasted opportunity in many ways. Um, I guess your other question is, is, um, what was the other question?

David DeRemer: No, it was, um, how can a partner help to navigate

Carsten Wierwille: Oh, and why, yeah, why, why, why do companies go out of house? Right. And what's your question? Yeah, I think, I think there are different reasons, but I would say, like, very often companies go out of house because They're thinking about what's next. So maybe we are a quick service restaurant and our, our core expertise is to deliver delicious, delicious food quickly to our customers in thousands and thousands and thousands of  places around the world.

Um, and our expertise might not be in, in delivering a great mobile app or, or a consumer friendly website. And so those are situations where companies go to a partner because they privilege. They don't have that expertise. They need help. Maybe they want to develop the expertise in the process. And that's, so I think that's outsourcing for what's next.

I think there's also a fair amount of outsourcing for what used to be or what's not that important anymore. So you take maybe aspects of your product portfolio that are more established and you decide to get some cost out. So you move the, you move the jobs offshore and that's, of course, something we've seen for at least two decades now.

So that has more of an operational cost saving mindset where the former is a bit more about, uh, innovation, developing new capabilities mindset.

David DeRemer: Is there anything around, I guess the, what's already been, that's like your scale teams, like  augmentation, like that side of it. That's what you mean by that one.

Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Um, so I guess, uh, given your experience, um, what has made, when you think back on some of the partnerships you've had, um, where you've really kind of helped firms navigate this and, and kind of help them figure out how to be successful with the product initiatives.

Are there hallmarks of those relationships that seemed to be important to the relationship, like getting the results that you were expecting?

Carsten Wierwille: I mean, it sounds kind of trite probably, but I think trust, openness, clear communication are really important. I also think the, the best relationships that I've seen, there, there was flexibility, both in terms of the, the outcome, but also the relationship, um, a few years ago, during my time at IS2, we worked with, with Peloton, and we worked on a home fitness game, and Their idea was to offer a  different way of, of working out.

So the typical Peloton fitness experience is an in class experience, right? You, you log on from the confines of your home, and then you watch an impossibly good looking instructor yell at you for an hour or so, and not everybody likes that. I mean, I personally don't like to get yelled at in any context.

And, uh, the, what we developed was more of a music and rhythm game that you could quote, unquote, play. So you could work out music. Uh, on the bike on the treadmill and you just try to stay in rhythm and pick up obstacles. And that would just be a way to more playful way to work out. And when, when that engagement started, they didn't have any expertise in this area.

They didn't have game designers or Unity developers, any of those things. And they're like, well, we're never going to develop this team. And then we launched this product, um, which is called lane break and it was successful. And there was really a, an interest there on the part of Peloton subscribers. And they realized, you know, Well, we have to maintain this now, and maybe we want to do more of those types of things.

And so then they did hire people  that have skills that's similar to ours. And there was sort of open communication throughout. So initially, we were more of a, um, of a design and development partner creating something against. Not a spec, but at least a clear objective. And then over time, we became more coach enabled, helping them to bring these capabilities in house, knowing full well that we would put ourselves out of business.

But it worked because there was clear communication about it. Sometimes in a, particularly in heavily procurement driven organization, you break the outcome of a service down into small parts.

And then if your needs change along the way, you can't adjust. But it's also, it's a fine balance, right? If you're, if you, David, you and your wife are decorating your kitchen next week, and the carpenter comes in and says, I work in an agile way.

So I can't tell you exactly what's going to happen, but it's going to look great. You're probably going to be a little uncomfortable about it.

So there's situations where the people that we are paying services from, where we expect them to deliver against,  precisely against our expectations. And then there are many situations where we're more open to flexibility.

Ideally, over time you build trust and the outcomes, the deliverables become more flexible. The outcome and the objective remains firm. I think those are the best collaborations.

David DeRemer: You were talking a lot earlier about purpose too, and I think that kind of comes through here in terms of like aligning your purpose as a partner and, and as a, as a firm, right? If you're, you're aligned around a scope or a budget, you know, or a fixed number of hours or something like that, you're not all actually aligned on your purpose.

You don't give you the room to evolve, um, if your, if your purpose is aligned. So in, in your example. You know, the, the inverse of that story is if I say, okay, okay. We got 50 grand to renovate the kitchen. Uh, we agree on these things, you know, but then as that build happens, I'm like, yeah, you know what, I really liked this really exotic marble I found.

Let's just add that. Oh, I really liked these door handles that are much more,  I know they're a little bit more expensive, but let's add those on, you know, um, I think where it works best is when you have a real partnership in the relationship where you're, you're, you're, you're seeing this as a mutually beneficial. together, the tension we're going to maintain. As a service provider and as a, as a client is tension, like holding up a drawbridge, right? Or holding up a suspension bridge. It's good tension. It's going to help to add stability and make sure we get the right result. Um, if you don't have any tensions at all, if it's just an, an unlimited blank check or no scope, you know, um, or no parameters at all, then you're going to get a lot of waste.

Right. But I think that sort of healthy tension can be really good sometimes. And I think aligning around that purpose, like we were talking about earlier on the conversation is really important.

Carsten Wierwille: In honesty, I think it's, it's quite common in any kind of service industry Clients are looking to, to do what you're doing over time that they're trying to replace you.

So, like, hey, we're going to bring these guys in and they're going to do  some development work or they're going to come up with a strategy and then we're going to just take this and run with it.

Um, but it doesn't really happen that way unless you put specific steps in place. So, if you want someone else to teach you how to fish, you should pay them not just for the fish, but also for the teaching. But both the vendors and the buyers of the service are often not honest about that.

Arguably, if it's important, then it should be monetized and it should be part of the service that's delivered.

David DeRemer: Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a tough world because we have so many constraints, right? Budgets and conflicting issues and procurement teams and all kinds of stuff that, um, make some of this stuff complicated. And a lot of times you get a client partner and, and you as a, as a service provider, you're totally aligned, but there's all these other layers and things you have to navigate through.

And it's about getting creative through that process. But I've always also felt like at the end of the day, right, it's just about relationships And I think that's one of the things that's I think a little bit worrisome about some of the  AI stuff going on right now is just sort of like eliminating the human interaction and some of the things that go on, because when you think about it, everything we do, at least as of 2024, June 18th, uh, you know, It's still human to human like everything involves humans and I think, um, nothing in my opinion transcends just being good people and having good honest relationships with people.

So much good comes from that. So, um, well, Carson, this has been great. Um, I think we're getting a little bit tight on time. So, um, I just wanted to just kind of wrap up and say, I have two questions for you to kind of wrap up. One is, uh, do you just have any sort of parting insights or advice that we didn't touch on already? That you, uh, when you think back and reflect on your careers, then it's something that you've really learned or your go to, uh, bit of advice that you give to your, uh, the companies you advise.

Carsten Wierwille: Yeah, I think that often the I think often the most interesting things that I've done, both in my career, but  also the most interesting things that I've seen on project is that when you just remain open to whatever you discover. So, I have ended up doing things with my professional career that I've never anticipated.

And similarly, often projects end up in a completely different place. Then you imagine, you know, I worked on a project that was supposed to be improving the, the queuing, um, in an amusement park, a very, very specific, narrow problem, and it ended up completely transforming the park experience.

So, if you sort of stay open to A, the problem at hand, but then what else could you do if you solve that?

And I think that's probably what I, what I would tell people is just you, you want to be fully in the moment, but be open to what you can do with this experience on a broader scale.

David DeRemer: That's great advice. Um, would you, uh, when you think in your advisory work or, or when you, uh, meet someone new, are there any, uh, go to books or podcasts that you always recommend people pick up? 

Carsten Wierwille: Um, beyond the, the James Clear that I just already touted, I'm not sure I can think of anything right now. I think it would depend more on, on the specific 

David DeRemer: Gotcha. Fair enough. Fair enough. Um, if people wanted to find you for advisory services, where would they, uh, where would they look you up?

Carsten Wierwille: Yeah, they can, they can find me online, um, and just look up my name. There's only, as far as I know, one person in the world with my, with my name. Okay.

David DeRemer: Wow, that's impressive these days, for sure. Great. Um, cool. Well, thanks so much for this. It was awesome. Thank you so much for taking some time out of your day. I know you're a busy guy, and um, I've had a pretty profound impact on me and VGB, so I appreciate you getting a little bit of time here for us to chat with you.

Carsten Wierwille: You're most welcome. Thanks so much.

David DeRemer: Carson. Okay.

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