Brian Abston, The Wendy’s Company — Redefining QSR Tech With Quality at the Core

[00:00:00] Brian: It's really easy to tell somebody what you don't like, but it's hard to tell [00:00:03] people what you really need. And so until we can get there, [00:00:06] uh, it's, it's, we're we're just not gonna be there with ai, in my opinion [00:00:09] for a while.

But, but as a, as a, to help with productivity, [00:00:12] I, I, I think it's exciting. [00:00:15] [00:00:18] [00:00:21] [00:00:24] [00:00:27] 

[00:00:30] David: Okay. Hi Brian. Welcome to Build to Succeed.[00:00:33] 

[00:00:33] Brian: How you doing, David?

[00:00:34] David: Doing great. Thank you so much [00:00:36] for taking some time to chat us. Um, so I wanted to start our [00:00:39] conversation. You're the Senior Director of Digital Technology at [00:00:42] Wendy's. And, uh, so the question, I want to know that's most [00:00:45] important is, uh, is it okay if I dip my fries in my [00:00:48] frosty.

[00:00:49] Brian: Yeah, I mean, so [00:00:51] absolutely the, that's kind of really what a lot of people [00:00:54] do. So, you know, you get the salt and the sweet at the same time. [00:00:57] The biggest controversy and the bigger controversy that we have, [00:01:00] uh, at Wendy's internally is. Vanilla or [00:01:03] chocolate. So [00:01:06] what's, what's your answer there?

[00:01:07] David: Yeah, I'm, I've always been to chocolate [00:01:09] 

[00:01:09] Brian: Okay. So, yeah. 

[00:01:10] David: it's just a really, really great [00:01:12] combo. well, so that's a good intro. Uh, as I mentioned, you're the [00:01:15] senior Director of technology at Wendy's. Um, maybe you could [00:01:18] kick us off by just introducing yourself and maybe take us [00:01:21] through your career journey that got you to this point.

[00:01:23] Brian: Yeah. [00:01:24] So, um, like you mentioned, uh, senior, [00:01:27] director, digital technology at Wendy's. Uh, been [00:01:30] around the industry for several years, across different, [00:01:33] uh, different industries. Uh, started [00:01:36] my, career as an electrical engineer. So I have, [00:01:39] my first degree I got was an electrical engineering [00:01:42] degree. started my career working in with [00:01:45] hardware and data centers. Uh, you know, late, late nineties [00:01:48] things started shifting towards software and less hardware, and [00:01:51] so started dabbling around and. [00:01:54] Software and programming and, and kind of fell in love with it. And, [00:01:57] uh, went back to school, early two [00:02:00] thousands and, uh, got my computer science degree. [00:02:03] And, uh, ever since then I've been, doing software development for [00:02:06] my career.

Kind of left the hardware scene [00:02:09] and, and went straight into software and, uh, have been [00:02:12] primarily a Java developer most of my career. Da, [00:02:15] dabbled in some front end stuff. I'm, I'm dangerous with the front end. [00:02:18] Uh, Part of the stack, but primarily just been [00:02:21] doing Java development, some architecture stuff throughout my [00:02:24] career. yeah. And so about eight years [00:02:27] ago. got into the quick ER QSR industry, which is what we call it's [00:02:30] quick service restaurant. So fast food. had an opportunity to work [00:02:33] for an iconic, uh, Oklahoma brand. come on board [00:02:36] as the architect and help them, uh, build and launch [00:02:39] their mobile experience for, for [00:02:42] their brand.

And it was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed [00:02:45] digital, and really. Cloud, [00:02:48] mobile, all that stuff is just a lot of fun. And it was really also my [00:02:51] first time I've got to, uh, be involved [00:02:54] in something that is used by the public. Most of my [00:02:57] career was like in FinTech and law enforcement and [00:03:00] power industry, and so we had like internal, I. [00:03:03] S software was internal to, to our, our [00:03:06] customers internally, you know, that were paying for it, but nothing like where you [00:03:09] have millions of people, including your neighbors, your parents [00:03:12] and family using, using the product. And that, that [00:03:15] made it a lot of fun. And, and so, four years ago, about four [00:03:18] years ago, I had an opportunity to join Wendy's, uh, as their [00:03:21] director of engineering and came on board and [00:03:24] helped them kind of rebuild. Retool their, their [00:03:27] engineering shops at Wendy's, and then pivot it over to [00:03:30] just focus on digital technology. And, and that's where I'm at today.[00:03:33] 

[00:03:33] David: So when you say digital technology, like what does that [00:03:36] encompass at a, at a company like Wendy's? Um, what kind [00:03:39] of digital platforms and tools generally are within that kind of [00:03:42] business?

[00:03:42] Brian: Yeah. So for, for, for Wendy's, uh, [00:03:45] our digital platform, digital technology, it's all custom [00:03:48] built. So I'm over the, the software engineering [00:03:51] side. Um, so you know, you're talking. [00:03:54] We have a platform team, and so, uh, you know, we have our, our stuff [00:03:57] runs in the cloud, so we have a cloud platform, and then my team, [00:04:00] uh, develops all the APIs for that run on the [00:04:03] platform and power our e-commerce as well as, [00:04:06] uh, my team does the, the mobile, development [00:04:09] and, and our website as well for, or mobile, [00:04:12] ordering on the website.

[00:04:13] David: Hmm, and that stack was mostly [00:04:15] homegrown at Wendy's over time.

[00:04:16] Brian: Yes. Yeah.

As well as the [00:04:18] last brand I was at. So it was all custom, custom [00:04:21] software. 'cause really QSR is a unique industry [00:04:24] because, uh, if you think about it, like for Wendy's, we have [00:04:27] over 6,000 stores and so there's a lot of [00:04:30] integration. So I. No matter where you're [00:04:33] ordering, on, on the mobile app, your order eventually has to [00:04:36] end up in the store.

And so there's, there's a lot of challenges [00:04:39] there because you can think about it as, you know, [00:04:42] 6,000 little data centers that [00:04:45] we have to be able to communicate with. And so, there's some [00:04:48] uniqueness to that and, and, and with menu and, and everything [00:04:51] like that, it, requires a lot of custom development

[00:04:54] and. 

[00:04:54] David: did the, no, I was gonna say, when did the, uh, [00:04:57] when did mobile really start to take hold at Wendy's as a key part of the [00:05:00] strategy?

[00:05:00] Brian: Uh, so when I, when I, uh, when I [00:05:03] joined four years ago, uh, it was already, uh, [00:05:06] built and in production. So I think it was about [00:05:09] probably six years ago when they kind of started with [00:05:12] it. Uh, and then, about probably five years ago is when they [00:05:15] really kind of started investing heavily into [00:05:18] it. And then, uh, when I came on board, it's been, heavily [00:05:21] invested in and keeps growing every year.

[00:05:23] David: And so [00:05:24] the, the mobile app was a, a big, big project at [00:05:27] Wendy's, right? I think you guys have recently, um, did you [00:05:30] re-platform or, or was this a new build that you guys have done recently?[00:05:33] 

[00:05:33] Brian: So we recently, uh, completely rewrote the [00:05:36] mobile app. Um, we originally had a [00:05:39] native iOS, a native Android app, and we've [00:05:42] rewritten, rewritten it from the ground up and flutter.

[00:05:44] David: [00:05:45] What was the challenge, uh, with the previous [00:05:48] native apps that kind of led to that sort of change?

[00:05:50] Brian: [00:05:51] Yeah, I mean, so mobile app mo [00:05:54] mobile native app development's expensive,

right? So you have [00:05:57] one product, but you have to have two, you have two code bases, right? [00:06:00] You have a Android code base and iOS code base. And [00:06:03] so that means, you know, two different teams, uh, [00:06:06] potentially, and it's hard to kind of operate as one team when you've [00:06:09] got. You know, two different sets of developers working on two [00:06:12] different code bases. some of the challenges we had [00:06:15] was the app over the time prior to me [00:06:18] joining is it had kind of changed hands a couple of [00:06:21] times with different partners. And so, originally it was, [00:06:24] you know, it was, when it was built, there was some, [00:06:27] Architectural things that were, were not [00:06:30] done, uh, properly and some best practices not followed. [00:06:33] And then it just kind of kept building on top of that, uh, [00:06:36] as, as things as the app got more complicated. [00:06:39] Like, for example, it was not very testable. The, the way the [00:06:42] code was written. Uh, it was hard to test. And so when [00:06:45] things are hard to test, right, it takes longer to get things into [00:06:48] production as well as, you know, you're gonna, [00:06:51] uh, you're gonna have more bugs in production. So, uh, it [00:06:54] just became to where it was taking too long to. To meet our [00:06:57] business, what our business was asking for. So [00:07:00] we'd come to really a crossroads at Wendy's and we, the, [00:07:03] the decision was either major [00:07:06] refactor of, of both code bases or a [00:07:09] MA or rewrite it.

And so, I. I had [00:07:12] dabbled in flutter for a while and had been following Flutter [00:07:15] since it was originally announced and really liked what [00:07:18] I had seen with it. And so, uh, [00:07:21] we, I really started looking into the decision of, Hey, let's just [00:07:24] rewrite this thing in flutter and, uh, [00:07:27] let's get one code base, uh, and, and not have to worry about, [00:07:30] you know, managing two different code bases.

[00:07:32] David: Yeah. What was the [00:07:33] process you went through to, [00:07:36] um, a identify the need? Right? Because I think [00:07:39] that's probably, there's, I'm assuming there was some pushback or concern at the [00:07:42] time of like, do, can we do this? Can we, can we [00:07:45] rebuild the thing or, uh, or completely [00:07:48] re-platform it? What's that gonna do for business continuity, pushing new [00:07:51] features?

How do you kind of like go through that [00:07:54] process of figuring out that A, it's the right thing to do and get the [00:07:57] buy-in, and then b, what's the process for [00:08:00] evaluating those two solutions, um, to a point where you could [00:08:03] make a decision and, and run with it?

[00:08:05] Brian: Yeah. I'll [00:08:06] start with the kind of the de the decision on flutter. [00:08:09] I'd been following, you know, the industry [00:08:12] for a while and, and you know, the, the promises of [00:08:15] being able to have one code base and run on both, [00:08:18] both platforms and, you know, really there had been some [00:08:21] previous, some predecessors that tried, and in my [00:08:24] opinion, it just was. Didn't live up to the [00:08:27] hype. And it really came down to there was, there's two, in my [00:08:30] opinion, two players. You got React native and you have flutter. And so [00:08:33] I took a look at both of them. Um, I. [00:08:36] React is React native is a great [00:08:39] product and it's, and it's popular. Um, but, but [00:08:42] for me, uh, when I was evaluating [00:08:45] React Native, I found it hard.

I found it difficult to get up to [00:08:48] speed quickly with React Native, as well as. [00:08:51] A lot. It was really hard to find like, [00:08:54] Hey, if I'm doing this, what is the best way to do that in React [00:08:57] native? Um, it was really hard. You would, you know, you'd do a [00:09:00] Google search and you'd get 10 different answers and the, [00:09:03] the, the platform was moving, the framework was moving so fast at [00:09:06] what was best practice, you know, six months ago is like not the way you do [00:09:09] it anymore.

And so I, I found it really hard as well as [00:09:12] the tooling I found kind of difficult to kind of get up and [00:09:15] running and, uh, took a little bit of work. And, and so [00:09:18] when you compare that, when you contrast that with flutter. I really [00:09:21] enjoyed dart. I thought DART was an easy language to learn. [00:09:24] really the tooling and flutter is top-notch in my [00:09:27] opinion.

You can, you know, you can get a, you can get up and running in, in a [00:09:30] matter of minutes with flutter and the developer experience [00:09:33] is great. So, uh, for me it became really an [00:09:36] easy decision, you know, as your, as a, as a leader and [00:09:39] you're, you're thinking about the team, you also have to think about, you know, [00:09:42] when I start trying to find developers, [00:09:45] you know, if I have a junior developer that's never. [00:09:48] That has experience, but you know, not [00:09:51] experiencing either flutter or React native, you know, how hard is it gonna be [00:09:54] them to get up to speed on, on either one of these frameworks? And, and I [00:09:57] just felt flutter that was hands down the winter there. [00:10:00] So, was a really easy decision there for that. you know, how [00:10:03] do you, how do you do this for, for us, you [00:10:06] know. I didn't have a lot of buy-in at the time, uh, [00:10:09] from, from the business. because we, you know, our [00:10:12] previous code base was not great. We were having, you know, [00:10:15] really hard time kind of delivering, uh, [00:10:18] and meeting the required, you know, meeting the needs of the business and being able to [00:10:21] move as fast as they wanted to move.

So not a lot of [00:10:24] confidence in the team at that time. So, uh, [00:10:27] fortunately I had. I had the confidence of our, of our [00:10:30] CTO and, um, and so talking [00:10:33] with, you know, with our, with him, you know, we, we [00:10:36] both agreed that, you know, something's gonna have to be done. And, and so he had a lot of [00:10:39] trust in me. And so the way we went about it [00:10:42] was, you know, he, he worked with me and we. We [00:10:45] basically funded a six month engagement with, we brought on [00:10:48] two developers, two flutter developers, and gave them [00:10:51] six months and said, let's, let's see how [00:10:54] far we can get with flutter in six months. And you know, [00:10:57] within six months we're gonna know, Hey, is this gonna work or is it [00:11:00] not? And so for us, you know, we really kind [00:11:03] of. K kind of skunk worked it, I guess you would say. and, and [00:11:06] really to start showing the business that, hey, this is the [00:11:09] right decision. And as we started building it, [00:11:12] it, it became really, really obvious that, uh, this was [00:11:15] gonna be a go.

[00:11:16] David: Awesome. So you, you built the new [00:11:18] app in parallel while you're continuing to support the native apps.

[00:11:20] Brian: [00:11:21] Yeah. And so the interesting thing there, is. [00:11:24] While we were working on Flutter as kind of a skunk [00:11:27] works, you know, we were also still adding things to the, [00:11:30] to the Native app and um. [00:11:33] We got to a point where we were, we would be adding the [00:11:36] same feature in both to try to keep 'em, uh, similar [00:11:39] and we were getting like two x speed on flutter.

[00:11:42] Like we'd f like something that would take, you know, 30 days [00:11:45] and native to get done. We would get done and, you know. [00:11:48] Less than, a sprint. And so we found really overall, [00:11:51] about a two x improvement in, in velocity [00:11:54] to get things done. Kind of a funny story, uh, [00:11:57] that those two developers started middle of December, [00:12:00] uh, a couple years ago.

And, uh, I I went on [00:12:03] leave, for, for Christmas break for two weeks. [00:12:06] And, uh, when I came back we had, we had our first. [00:12:09] Call when I got back, and they worked a lot of [00:12:12] Christmas break. Uh, they took a few days here and there, but for the most [00:12:15] part they, the, the two, the two were working. And when [00:12:18] I, when I got back, I expected maybe to have a screen or two ready [00:12:21] and, you know, I got back and they pretty much had a, a [00:12:24] functioning prototype where, you know, you could browse the menu [00:12:27] and log in and off and, and just, [00:12:30] I was just totally blown away, uh, by how fast you, you know, we were [00:12:33] able to get something up and running.

[00:12:35] David: Did they have, [00:12:36] um, so were they like essentially using the native apps as [00:12:39] a reference, uh, reference code? Or did they have.

[00:12:41] Brian: Yeah, so, [00:12:42] so for us, uh, it was, it was a little different because we [00:12:45] already had a, we already had a app, uh, with millions of users [00:12:48] using it. Uh, and, and they were both already in the app store and [00:12:51] public and, and, you know, and, and so we, [00:12:54] when we started, we said, okay, let's just make it [00:12:57] very similar to the, to the native app, and we, we'll, [00:13:00] we'll kind of go from there.

Uh, really it was just to [00:13:03] prove that we could make. We could make what we have [00:13:06] now and flutter and, uh, and, and show the [00:13:09] business that, yeah, we can do this, you know, easily with flutter.[00:13:12] 

[00:13:12] David: Was there skepticism? You mentioned, you know, [00:13:15] internally the business was, uh, sort of [00:13:18] feeling the pain of the, the prior apps and there was a little, a [00:13:21] little low trust. When you think about making a bold choice [00:13:24] like this, were you gonna do something different as a solution to it? [00:13:27] What kind of skepticism did you have to overcome?

Or what kind of [00:13:30] internal sales did you have to do to, to get everybody comfortable with this [00:13:33] choice?

[00:13:34] Brian: really it was just a [00:13:36] matter of, of, of me kind of, calling in some [00:13:39] favors and say, Hey, just, you know, could you [00:13:42] trust this decision? And, and, and the way we went about it, [00:13:45] I think really allowed us to. [00:13:48] kind of hedge our bet, because, you know, we didn't say, [00:13:51] Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna go, you know, spend millions of [00:13:54] dollars and, and build a whole team and, and we're just gonna throw away the old app and [00:13:57] rewrite it, right?

We, we kind of, we said, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna [00:14:00] prove to you in, in less than six months that [00:14:03] this is the way to go. And so the, the [00:14:06] decision really paid off well because, You know, [00:14:09] it's, it's scary to, to go, to tell the, you know, for the [00:14:12] business to say, to go tell them we're gonna just throw [00:14:15] away everything we've been working on and rewrite it completely.

So, [00:14:18] um, so that made the deci that made it [00:14:21] really easy to, to kind of overcome the skepticism. Uh, [00:14:24] you know, we had skepticism on the technology side as well. [00:14:27] Um, with Flutter being a, a new frame, newer [00:14:30] framework, um, we were worried about, you know, we have a lot of [00:14:33] integrations with different partners, uh, and we were worried [00:14:36] about, you know.

It could flutter. Could we [00:14:39] deal with it if they don't have an SDK? You know, [00:14:42] does the bridge, you know, the, what the, I think flutter [00:14:45] calls it a bridge. Does. Is that gonna work? Is it gonna live up to the hype? Can [00:14:48] we, can we do that easily and make things work? But [00:14:51] for the most part, uh, we got lucky, several of our [00:14:54] partners, uh, while we were building the app, we're [00:14:57] also launching flutter support as well.

So we [00:15:00] actually helped, uh, one of our partners test their flutter [00:15:03] SDK as we were building our app. So a lot of that [00:15:06] became, Not important as, as we kept going [00:15:09] because there was more support for Fluter, you know, every week.[00:15:12] 

[00:15:12] David: Hmm. That's awesome. What was the like, sort of help [00:15:15] me understand like the shape of your team back, both [00:15:18] pren and then maybe kind of where it is today in terms of, I. Like [00:15:21] roughly how big was each team and what was the flow of like [00:15:24] idea through into like product and design and into [00:15:27] engineering and deployment.

And I'm just kind of curious to contrast [00:15:30] how that may have changed from the old way to the current state.[00:15:33] 

[00:15:33] Brian: Yeah, so at, at Wendy's, the [00:15:36] product team, uh, the digital product team, they, they [00:15:39] live in, in our, well, our marketing team. And so, [00:15:42] our, our engineering team is separate, but we're, we're [00:15:45] partnered closely, so we're in meetings daily with them. And so [00:15:48] everything

kind of flows through the product team, uh, [00:15:51] the ideas and they decide, you know, Hey, [00:15:54] this is something that we really want to add to the app, and then it. [00:15:57] then they work with us, the engineering team, and then, you know, we, we [00:16:00] implement the whatever they ask was. And [00:16:03] so, prior to Flutter, um, [00:16:06] you know, we had, we had a basically two, two [00:16:09] teams. We had an Android team and a iOS team, [00:16:12] um, about, think we had about [00:16:15] 12 developers on each. Um, [00:16:18] and, um. What we [00:16:21] saw was, you know, we tried to keep 'em as one team, but you know, when you [00:16:24] have a team going off and implementing something, another team [00:16:27] going off and implementing something, oftentimes [00:16:30] they're not implemented the same way.

And there would be little nuances between [00:16:33] Android and iOS. Most of the time it wasn't major, but [00:16:36] you know, some, sometimes there'd be nuances. And then also you have [00:16:39] obviously. Unique set of bugs in each code base, [00:16:42] right? And so, you know, something would get, report [00:16:45] mobile's really hard, just in general when you have millions of users, right?

You've got all [00:16:48] these devices, all these different screen sizes, you [00:16:51] know, network connectivity issues, and, and just. [00:16:54] Lots. I call it the wild west. Basically your, your app is in a [00:16:57] hostile environment. It's not like in a controlled data center. [00:17:00] So, you know, we'd get an issue reported [00:17:03] and then the, you know, the first thing you would have to find out, is it the iOS [00:17:06] app or is the, you know, Android app.

And so there was always this [00:17:09] kind of, I. Divergence of things that would happen, [00:17:12] you know, in two different paths based on, uh, what the, [00:17:15] what the device was. It's also hard for qa, right? You have a QA team that has to [00:17:18] test an Android app, everything in the Android app and [00:17:21] everything in the iOS app. And so, uh, it [00:17:24] also was intensive for QA and the product team, product team had to [00:17:27] sign off on, you know, two different code bases.

And so, [00:17:30] Moving to Flutter, it's greatly simplified how we, [00:17:33] how we do things. And so now we think of everything as one. Yeah, there's, [00:17:36] there's some little nuances between iOS and Android, but for the [00:17:39] most part, our business requirements and the things that [00:17:42] we're doing, you know, with within our business logic is the same in [00:17:45] both apps.

Um, and so it becomes really easy [00:17:48] for the product team to sign off on things because they're [00:17:51] really only. Looking at, they're looking at the same code base for [00:17:54] the most part, uh, as well as the QA team. [00:17:57] Uh, and so it's, it's been really nice. And then [00:18:00] the, the, the team itself, we basically combined [00:18:03] our, both of our teams into one team.

And so now it's just [00:18:06] the mobile team. Uh, and we don't have to think about, [00:18:09] uh, iOS and Android, you know, teams [00:18:12] being separate and, and trying to make sure everything's together. [00:18:15] It's really given us. The opportunity to [00:18:18] flex our resources around, right? And so if we have a [00:18:21] feature that's, a pretty big feature, um, you know, we [00:18:24] can just put more, more developers on that feature.

[00:18:27] Whereas, you know, before we were, we were limited, right? If [00:18:30] we had a big feature, we were limited to only the iOS [00:18:33] developers and only the Android developers on, on the Android side. And so [00:18:36] now we have a bigger pool of developers to kind of, [00:18:39] uh, you know, shuffle around onto different things as needed.[00:18:42] 

[00:18:43] David: I That's, that's really insightful and, [00:18:45] and that's an area where I think we, with these multi-platform [00:18:48] solutions, people often focus on the developer [00:18:51] productivity. Um, but I think what you're highlighting is the [00:18:54] impact on all the adjacent teams that the engineering team has [00:18:57] to interface with, the design team, the product team, the QA [00:19:00] team, and there's a lot of savings and [00:19:03] efficiencies on those teams as well.

And the, the relationships there. [00:19:06] Um, so you mentioned, I love that notion too of like you [00:19:09] switched down just the mobile team, just the one mobile team. But what's [00:19:12] that like culturally? Because you said you got 12 people, [00:19:15] iOS and Android, they probably identify as, I'm an iOS [00:19:18] developer, I'm an Android developer.

You got two flutter engineers [00:19:21] going out, kind of rebuilding it and kind of keeping pace [00:19:24] and then maybe even going a little faster than them. What was [00:19:27] that like from a culture perspective and like a team perspective when [00:19:30] you were making that transition and that shift?[00:19:33] 

[00:19:33] Brian: Yeah, we, we had a few developers, so, um, [00:19:36] most of our mo our mobile developers are, are, are, uh, were, [00:19:39] contractors and so. most of them were [00:19:42] excited, uh, about moving to Flutter. Uh, we had a couple [00:19:45] that were, you know, they're diehard native developers and, they, they [00:19:48] just didn't wanna to move to flutter.

And so, [00:19:51] so we worked with that, You know, uh, but for the [00:19:54] most part, everybody was super excited and, the way we [00:19:57] really messaged it, there was really not any issues. Look, [00:20:00] when you have a, when you have a bad code base or a code base is [00:20:03] not great, uh, and it's bloated and it's been, you know, [00:20:06] passed down from multiple teams. Look [00:20:09] it, it's not a knock on the current team, right? It's just, it [00:20:12] is what it is and it's, it becomes unwieldy and difficult really, in [00:20:15] my opinion. It really just solidified, you know, as we were [00:20:18] doing stuff side by side, uh, it really solidified that, [00:20:21] uh, moving to flutter was the right decision, [00:20:24] um, because we were able to, to move so much faster.

[00:20:27] So, um, really, to be quite honest, David, there was [00:20:30] not really any. Any negative piece, [00:20:33] you know, negative sides to, to moving to flutter with the teams. [00:20:36] Everybody was excited. And, and since then, [00:20:39] uh, Mo you know, now that we're fully a flutter, flutter shop, [00:20:42] everybody loves it. And, um, you know, one of the things also, [00:20:45] you know, when when we were done building it, you know, we [00:20:48] were. I don't remember what the final number was, but we [00:20:51] were, we were high nineties in test coverage, like 98, 90 [00:20:54] 9% test coverage in the app. And so it just, [00:20:57] it just, it was just a pleasure to work with for the developers [00:21:00] because they know if they break something, uh, they're, they're [00:21:03] more than likely gonna know before, you know, before we handed off to QA 

[00:21:05] David: [00:21:06] That's awesome. So in, in addition to the efficiencies of [00:21:09] being able to just ship faster, it'll, you're doing things [00:21:12] now that just weren't possible to do before in terms of like making sure you [00:21:15] got the time to write tests.

[00:21:16] Brian: Yeah. Another, another, uh, [00:21:18] very pivotal thing that we invested in. When we moved [00:21:21] to Flutters, we worked with our UX partner and we, [00:21:24] uh, we built, we built the design system. And so our new app [00:21:27] is, our new Flutter app is completely using a design [00:21:30] system. Um, and so, you know, our, our old app, like [00:21:33] just an example, we, I think we had, like, we counted, we had [00:21:36] like 10 different shades of red,

uh, Wendy's [00:21:39] red, and uh, you know, and. You get a new [00:21:42] developer in there and they, they may go grab the wrong [00:21:45] color, whereas now, you know, it's all built in the design [00:21:48] system and so somebody comes in, they just use the, the, the prebuilt [00:21:51] components and it's, it just makes the [00:21:54] experience much more unified. I.

[00:21:56] David: I have a [00:21:57] question around the, this cultural shift too. Do you feel like [00:22:00] now that the team is all aligned and more unified as one [00:22:03] team, has it uh, improved overall? The general team [00:22:06] culture and collaboration?

[00:22:08] Brian: Yeah, I think [00:22:09] so. Um, there was really not a lot [00:22:12] of, even though we had two mobile teams, I mean iOS team and [00:22:15] Android team, we were really, I. We all shared [00:22:18] most of

the same ceremonies together. So there there was not a lot of [00:22:21] us in them in type in our culture. we did, we [00:22:24] worked really hard over the last four years to, to build a [00:22:27] very friendly engineering culture. and so didn't, [00:22:30] didn't really see a lot of that. But, um, one of the [00:22:33] things it has done for us as an engineering team is it's [00:22:36] built a lot of trust with our business partners and our [00:22:39] product team. And, uh, you know, [00:22:42] now they, they really. C that yeah, it [00:22:45] was the right decision. And they're, and having them all on [00:22:48] board and, and moving with us, uh, [00:22:51] to move forward is, has been awesome.

And, and the, and the, [00:22:54] and just having the trust. Right? And, and don't get me [00:22:57] wrong, the, the, the lack of trust was, was, was [00:23:00] something that we had, we had earned. Right? And so we had, we had to earn [00:23:03] that trust back. Trust is earned. And so, um, this was a [00:23:06] really, been a really positive, uh, thing for, [00:23:09] for our engineering team as, uh, as a team, as [00:23:12] a whole.

[00:23:13] David: That's something we've heard before from some [00:23:15] other companies that have switched to flutter is like repairing this broken [00:23:18] trust that the technology has. Where when the technology's moving [00:23:21] really slowly, you know, there's, [00:23:24] I think I, one of the things is like we have this reputation, like [00:23:27] everything's gonna take twice as long and cost twice as much.

And technology, I. [00:23:30] Uh, I've said before, it's like, what, what a terrible [00:23:33] reputation to have like in as a profession. Um, [00:23:36] and then you get something like this where you have an opportunity to repair that trust and you're [00:23:39] able to move faster. Uh, you get that trust back [00:23:42] and that confidence. What kind of like business [00:23:45] values, do you think that, or business impact that shift [00:23:48] in trust creates for a technology [00:23:51] team in terms of velocity?

Is it just shipping faster? Is [00:23:54] it more responsive reaction, um, fixing bugs faster? [00:23:57] What are, what are the impacts?

[00:23:58] Brian: Yeah, I think it's a little bit of all the [00:24:00] above. Um. Last year we had to, we had a couple [00:24:03] of partners that we had to, integrations that we had to change. [00:24:06] and we had two of them. One of 'em [00:24:09] was, was kind of a Y 2K event for, for us. [00:24:12] We had to, we had to get moved off by a certain date [00:24:15] and, We had made the decision at that point. It was before we [00:24:18] launched Flutter. we launched Flutter in April and we, [00:24:21] we found out in December we were gonna have to move, uh, [00:24:24] partners and it was a major piece of our, of our, uh, [00:24:27] integration and our application. And so, we were [00:24:30] given a very tight timeline.

Like we were told by the company, [00:24:33] they don't think that we could get it done, within that timeline. [00:24:36] And had it been native, I don't think we would've got it done, but [00:24:39] we were able to deliver, On time [00:24:42] with Flutter and get it out the door and [00:24:45] launch it, in time. Uh, we launched in April. [00:24:48] Our, our Y 2K event was July. Um, [00:24:51] and so we started, we launched, uh, our flutter app first on [00:24:54] Android and started doing the staggered release [00:24:57] and watching, you know, our KPIs as, as we [00:25:00] increased and, you know, several hot fixes, right? 'cause once you [00:25:03] throw something out in the wild, um, you're gonna, you're gonna see things that you've not [00:25:06] seen in, in a lab. And so. so the [00:25:09] ability to hot fix, like, and so prior in [00:25:12] Native, we were doing about one release a month, and now we're doing [00:25:15] a release of sprint if we want. Uh, so we're doing two, two [00:25:18] releases a month if, if needed. Uh, and as much as we've been [00:25:21] moving lately, we've been taking advantage of that. So we've, [00:25:24] we've been able to basically deliver much faster.[00:25:27] 

[00:25:27] David: So not only more efficiently, more productive with the [00:25:30] team, but also just shipping value to customers much, much [00:25:33] faster and, and like the same to both places at all [00:25:36] times. Not like, Ooh, is Android a little different? Is iOS a little different? [00:25:39] 

[00:25:39] Brian: And also too, it becomes hard to keep two [00:25:42] teams, uh, in sync, right. And two products in sync. We have, [00:25:45] we, we still have, like, you know, we also have a, a [00:25:48] mobile, or not a mobile, a web ordering site as well. And keeping [00:25:51] that in sync is hard. And so, uh, you know, when you had [00:25:54] three different things trying to keep in sync from a customer [00:25:57] experience perspective, it, it made things harder.

And, and with [00:26:00] it, with the mobile app just being flutter now, it becomes, you know, [00:26:03] it's in sync. You launch it on. You launch it [00:26:06] and it's launched, uh, you know, on both platforms, you know, we upload it to [00:26:09] the app stores and you're, and you're done.

[00:26:11] David: Yeah, [00:26:12] so that's interesting. Your, it changed your release schedule and, and [00:26:15] how you guys are shipping to customers. Have there been any [00:26:18] other sort of changes to the way your team works as a [00:26:21] result of this shift or change? Um, any, [00:26:24] you know, build pipeline, CICD, even maybe just the [00:26:27] design system was one you 

mentioned. 

[00:26:29] Brian: Yeah. So [00:26:30] everything we do, automation is, is key, [00:26:33] right? So we, we try to automate everything. Uh, some of the things that [00:26:36] we, when we build and release, that we try [00:26:39] to do, we, we use a lot of feature flagging. and [00:26:42] so I. You know, mobile wants you, you know, you gotta get the app store approval.

And so, [00:26:45] uh, when you get it out there, it's hard. You can't really [00:26:48] roll it back. Right. It's not like a an API that we control. [00:26:51] Right. And we just roll back, you know, we just run the pipeline to roll it back. [00:26:54] So, we rely heavily on, on feature flagging, [00:26:57] uh, within our mobile app, uh, so that we can turn it on [00:27:00] for, you know, for whoever we want, as well as we've, [00:27:03] we. Take advantage every time of the, [00:27:06] the staggered rollouts in the app stores now, you know, being able to [00:27:09] roll it out to a small percentage of users those two things [00:27:12] have allowed us to continue to move fast and take some [00:27:15] risk because, you know, we can easily, you know, [00:27:18] turn off or, or slow down, uh, if we do find [00:27:21] issues and, and how Fix it.

[00:27:23] David: [00:27:24] Has this, uh, has it also improved the relationship with [00:27:27] the, uh, like the marketing team and the promotions team? I, [00:27:30] I would imagine quick service where there's a lot of like [00:27:33] regional campaigns and, you know, maybe there's [00:27:36] something big happens in, you're doing a big advertising campaign in sports or [00:27:39] some, some sort of, uh, seasonal promotion or something [00:27:42] like that.

Does this, has this improved your ability to like, [00:27:45] keep up with the ideas of the marketing team and all the pace of [00:27:48] that as well?

[00:27:49] Brian: Oh yeah, for sure. and that was, that was [00:27:51] really the, one of the biggest drivers, right, is we couldn't keep up. [00:27:54] Uh, for Wendy's, March Madness is one, we call it our [00:27:57] Super Bowl. So we, we. We do a lot of heavy promotion during March [00:28:00] Madness. and so, uh, some of the things that [00:28:03] we've done, uh, in the app will allow us to dynamically [00:28:06] change things and, and, and stuff like that to, whereas before it was, [00:28:09] was kind of hard coded and require, [00:28:12] require an app release. Um, so we've done a lot of [00:28:15] things. when we rebuilt it, we, we kind of [00:28:18] architected in a way that would allow us to, to keep up, uh, [00:28:21] and allow us to change things without, you know, involving the [00:28:24] engineering team.

[00:28:25] David: Super cool. Do you guys use any like rev [00:28:27] tech or MarTech tools like, uh, the braises or the loyalty [00:28:30] programs, stuff like that?

[00:28:30] Brian: Yeah, yeah. We're heavily in, we, we [00:28:33] have a, we're heavily in CRM as well as loyalty. So [00:28:36] loyalty is a huge, a huge aspect for Wendy's [00:28:39] digital. It's, it's one of the primary reasons, you know, someone [00:28:42] uses a, an app for QSR is, is a lot of the, the [00:28:45] offers and rewards, uh, of, of ordering through those.[00:28:48] 

[00:28:48] David: And, uh, no risks. I know sometimes, sometimes the [00:28:51] people we talk to, they're uh, a little worried about like, am I gonna be able [00:28:54] to use my favorite loyalty tool or something like that. [00:28:57] But have you guys felt any, any pains from this [00:29:00] transition or this change across the board? Is there anything you miss from Native or where [00:29:03] Flutters been Not the greatest, [00:29:06] uh, thing.

[00:29:07] Brian: No to be, I [00:29:09] mean to be quite honest, no, it's been, uh. [00:29:12] That was my biggest concern, right, was that there's gonna be some things that we [00:29:15] miss and, you know, for QSR app, [00:29:18] there's a ton of integrations, but there's nothing [00:29:21] super native that we needed. [00:29:24] So, um, I. we could overcome it very easily.

[00:29:27] There's, there's still, we still have a couple SDKs that don't have, flutter [00:29:30] SDKs, but we just, you know, built the bridge and, [00:29:33] you know, use it that way. So, but for the most part, you [00:29:36] know, the, some of of our key integrations are either, uh, [00:29:39] API driven, so it doesn't matter. Or, they've [00:29:42] released an SDK for flutter.

So it, it's not been an issue. And we haven't, [00:29:45] we haven't missed native at all. I've, I've, not, I've not heard [00:29:48] anybody say, uh, man, I wish we would've, you know, rebuilt this thing in [00:29:51] native.

[00:29:51] David: Hmm. I think there's fear and there's [00:29:54] concern about like, well, what, what don't I know? And maybe I'm gonna hit [00:29:57] something that's unexpected. But certainly listening to your [00:30:00] story today, I mean, it'd be a no brainer to do it again. [00:30:03] You know, if you guys, if you go back and tell yourself, you'd be like, it is a hundred percent [00:30:06] the right choice.

Um, not hearing a whole lot of like [00:30:09] negatives or reasons not to. Why do you think some people might [00:30:12] be sitting on the sidelines with some of this technology and not embracing this? [00:30:15] We see obviously the benefits are massive, right? In terms of [00:30:18] cost, savings, speed, time to market, all those things. [00:30:21] What do you think is holding people back on [00:30:24] this?

[00:30:24] Brian: just the unknowns, I think probably more than likely, right. [00:30:27] Um, for us, I can be a risk taker at [00:30:30] times on technology. So, I've been around long [00:30:33] enough that when I see something, that I think [00:30:36] is, is the right solution, uh, I. And [00:30:39] I, and I kick the tires and, I take a look at it and it, [00:30:42] feels right and looks right and, and looks like it checks all the [00:30:45] boxes. I'm willing to put a little bit of time into it and, and, and make [00:30:48] sure, uh, that it is the right solution. I [00:30:51] think, you know, for Flutter, the biggest concerns [00:30:54] were, uh, you know, it's just a. It's not [00:30:57] native, right? And so you're worried about what's gonna hap, you know, is [00:31:00] Flutter gonna be here a decade from now or, or five years from [00:31:03] now?

Or whatever, uh, or, or is it gonna see the [00:31:06] adoption rate that, you know, that React, react native is seen? [00:31:09] And so, so that was really the kind of the. [00:31:12] Skepticism that I saw from within [00:31:15] myself and the team. and like I mentioned earlier, [00:31:18] we did the six month test and that really, [00:31:21] in my opinion, is what made the decision easy.

[00:31:24] Uh, it would've been a little more difficult for us to go in [00:31:27] and get. Get everybody to, to [00:31:30] say, let's do this. Uh, flutter is absolutely the [00:31:33] right decision and, and go all in and do it right. And [00:31:36] so, kind of really hedging it a little bit with that six [00:31:39] month, POC really checked all the boxes for

[00:31:41] David: [00:31:42] Hmm. So it sounds like this definitely had a pretty significant impact on [00:31:45] the bottom line for, uh, for Wendy's.

[00:31:47] Brian: Yeah, for us, [00:31:48] we, we still, we didn't, uh, we didn't, you can [00:31:51] look at it two ways. you know, when you, when you do something like this, when you [00:31:54] combine the code base, you could look at it as, well, we could, you know, we could [00:31:57] cut the team in half. Or you could look at it as, [00:32:00] I can take my existing team and deliver, you know, close [00:32:03] to double of what we are delivering, uh, [00:32:06] now.

And for us, that's the, that's the road we went because [00:32:09] we weren't able to keep up before, uh, with the team, [00:32:12] you know, in the, in the code base. And, and now, you [00:32:15] know, we're able to keep up. And so for us it was, [00:32:18] you know, the value of being able to deliver. But [00:32:21] there's, there's two different ways that a, that a company could look at it.

You could look [00:32:24] at it as. Uh, you know, I'm gonna save [00:32:27] resources, cost, and resources, or I'm going [00:32:30] to really save because [00:32:33] I'm getting double the value out of the same resources.[00:32:36] 

[00:32:36] David: Nice. Yeah. I like fair weather and fa weather [00:32:39] stories there, you know?

[00:32:40] Brian: Yeah, it just depends on whichever way you

wanna, [00:32:42] you wanna look at it, but there's, uh, either way I've [00:32:45] like. The, the value of of having one [00:32:48] code base is, I I can't speak to it enough, [00:32:51] um, in mobile and, and it's just [00:32:54] so hard to maintain two code bases that need to try to do the [00:32:57] exact same thing,

especially if you have an app that [00:33:00] has a lot of complexity to it.

[00:33:01] David: Yeah. Have you guys [00:33:03] considered, um, like going to any other platforms, like doing [00:33:06] any kiosk work or in-store ordering type stuff or anything [00:33:09] along those lines?

[00:33:10] Brian: So we looked at, uh, we looked at [00:33:12] doing it for web. I, I challenged the team and said, you [00:33:15] know, Hey, let's, let's just do a [00:33:18] little POC and, you know, and and [00:33:21] take a look at it for web. End of the day we [00:33:24] decided not to, to proceed with web. There's some [00:33:27] still, in my opinion, is still a little bit immature around [00:33:30] SEO and, uh, a DA compliance.

And [00:33:33] so those are some of the things that are important to Wendy's and some of the things we wanted [00:33:36] to improve on. And so, uh, for us it just made [00:33:39] sense to, to not move forward with, with flutter on web. [00:33:42] We all, we, it's being used, uh, in other parts of the [00:33:45] company as well for some internal, uh, applications for [00:33:48] mobile. Um, and then I'm, I'm kind of looking at it for [00:33:51] some other internal tooling, uh, type

[00:33:54] applications. 

[00:33:54] David: Super cool. Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty hot on the idea of like [00:33:57] kiosks and sort of non-traditional devices. I think there's [00:34:00] just a lot of, uh, that's the real multi-platform aspect [00:34:03] of it that I think is super fun. And then you get real fungibility of people where [00:34:06] you can take people on your mobile team, work on those internal apps you're talking about, [00:34:09] work on the kiosks and you know, whether it's Linux or [00:34:12] Windows or whatever else.

And I think there's a lot of untapped area there.[00:34:15] 

[00:34:15] Brian: Right. And I agree. Our, our, our next gen kiosk, we [00:34:18] decided to, uh, use a partner, uh, for, but if, [00:34:21] if we would've internally developed a kiosk, I was a hundred percent gonna [00:34:24] use flutter for, for it because it just, it would've fit [00:34:27] perfect and we would've been able to reuse a lot of our, [00:34:30] our mobile code base, uh, to, to, uh, to de develop it.

[00:34:32] David: [00:34:33] Awesome. Well, we've talked a lot about fluter. I wanted to get a sense [00:34:36] for your, uh, some of your like, management approaches, you know, what it takes to [00:34:39] lead teams and run through, uh, some teams through these [00:34:42] transitions. What are some important lessons you've learned as a [00:34:45] result of going through some of these big technology transformations and mo [00:34:48] moving a team through navigating that sort of broken [00:34:51] trust to regaining the trust, making a big technology choice, doing that [00:34:54] pivot?

What are some things you've learned in terms of like [00:34:57] leading teams to be successful through these moments?[00:35:00] 

[00:35:01] Brian: Yeah, the, [00:35:03] some of the big lessons on a big project like this is, you know, [00:35:06] building something that works is easy, right? Like [00:35:09] getting it to a functioning app that's. [00:35:12] Uh, that works is easy, but building something that's [00:35:15] production ready is hard. And so, [00:35:18] um, especially if you're replacing an, an existing app, right?

Like [00:35:21] we had, we had 40 million users [00:35:24] and, you know, we had to, we had a lot of challenges, uh, because [00:35:27] you know, it's not a new app that we're just gonna launch in an app store. [00:35:30] We had to figure out how to. you know, the next [00:35:33] day they're, they're on a native iOS app and they [00:35:36] get an app store update and all of a sudden they've, they have a Flutter [00:35:39] app.

You know, how do we not break everything, uh, [00:35:42] that they have, you know, stored locally on their, on their [00:35:45] device for, you know, around off tokens, things like that. So there [00:35:48] we had a lot of challenges around that. So while we got [00:35:51] something, uh, up and running quickly and, and, but [00:35:54] dialing in and getting it production ready for, for the [00:35:57] consumer, there's a lot of work between. yeah, it works to, [00:36:00] to, yeah. It's ready to, to be launched. And so, [00:36:03] that's really for us, a lesson that we [00:36:06] learned and, and something we already knew. But, you know, when you're working on a big [00:36:09] project, you, you're, you sometimes look [00:36:12] past that, but, um, just getting it ready for [00:36:15] production,

there's a more work there than getting it built, to be quite [00:36:18] honest.

[00:36:18] David: Yeah, I think people, uh, we, we like to [00:36:21] do the, the fun new stuff. Build a brand new app, you know, get [00:36:24] something new, fresh, but those, uh, transition [00:36:27] points and making sure you don't leave anybody hanging. It's, there's a [00:36:30] lot of details to, to manage there. What [00:36:33] advice would you give to, uh, other leaders or if there's someone else who's [00:36:36] hearing your story and be like, wow.

This is a no brainer. [00:36:39] We gotta look into this. Um, what advice would you give to other [00:36:42] leaders that maybe would be about to kick off a similar, [00:36:45] similar story?

[00:36:46] Brian: find some type of [00:36:48] supporter or ally within your, in your leadership, whether that's, [00:36:51] you know, your CTO or your CIO [00:36:54] or, or your CMO or whoever finds somebody [00:36:57] that. That you can get behind you on the project and, [00:37:00] and help evangelize the project, uh, with [00:37:03] you. you know, you're not always gonna get buy-in, right?

Like, you're not always [00:37:06] gonna be able to go convince all the stakeholders that this is the right [00:37:09] thing to do. Be creative, kind of like we did and, and [00:37:12] try to find a way to get it started and, and, [00:37:15] get something tangible that you can show the, the [00:37:18] people that are skeptical and, and like I I, if [00:37:21] you can show them and they can get their hands on it and, and [00:37:24] see the value I.

You know, you'll instantly turn a, a [00:37:27] naysayer into a sayer. So, that's my biggest advice [00:37:30] is, you know, you, you have to have some type of [00:37:33] buy-in and support from somewhere in your organization. [00:37:36] And, uh, if you can't get the, the type of buy-in and [00:37:39] funding that you need to just, you know, say, Hey, let's go do this.[00:37:42] 

Let's go all in and do it. Try to be creative and, [00:37:45] and see if you can get some type of funding for a skunkworks project [00:37:48] and, and, and see what you can get going.

[00:37:49] David: Hmm. That's [00:37:51] awesome. You mentioned a couple times about having the CTO partner like [00:37:54] that buy-in. Is there just a general like leadership [00:37:57] philosophy that you think makes a, a technically minded [00:38:00] company more likely to, uh, to be able to [00:38:03] embrace these things? Like what made it about your CTO even that [00:38:06] had the right mentality for you to go off and do [00:38:09] this?

[00:38:09] Brian: you know, there was a lot of trust between myself and him [00:38:12] and, uh, we, you, we had worked together before, [00:38:15] so, um, there was a little bit of history there, which was [00:38:18] good. Uh, as well as, you [00:38:21] know, a good CTO will listen to their, to their [00:38:24] engineering leadership, right? So, He was a big user of the [00:38:27] app and saw a lot of the challenges and he, uh, as [00:38:30] we were rebuilding our engineering organization, you know, he was pretty [00:38:33] close to everything that was happening and, and seeing all the challenges [00:38:36] that my team was having.

And so, uh, seeing [00:38:39] that and knowing that and, um, he [00:38:42] knew that, you know, like I said, we came before in road and it was either [00:38:45] refactor or rebuild. And so, um. [00:38:48] You know, because I had the, the [00:38:51] relationship with him and, and the trust, you know, when I said, let's [00:38:54] rebuild, he said, let's do it. And so, um, and then, so then we figured out a [00:38:57] way to do it to where we [00:39:00] could, kind of hedge a little bit, right?

Because we didn't have full support and [00:39:03] we didn't have the funding to go pull all of our native [00:39:06] developers at that time and, and go rewrite it. We still had things we needed [00:39:09] to, to deliver for the, to the business. so we found a way [00:39:12] to do it, kind of, uh, skunk works.

[00:39:14] David: That's awesome. [00:39:15] Yeah. That trust and that buy-in and that little bit of risk [00:39:18] tolerance is pretty important. Well, this has been awesome. I think the [00:39:21] Fluter community is gonna really value you telling your story here. And, [00:39:24] um, sort of last question I wanted to ask you is like, looking ahead, obviously [00:39:27] there's a lot of change going on right now in technology world.

[00:39:30] What are some exciting technologies or, or [00:39:33] changes you're seeing in the landscape of technology these days?[00:39:36] 

[00:39:36] Brian: I'm gonna give you a lame answer of ai. [00:39:39] Um, but, but in a different kind of, maybe a different, uh, [00:39:42] different perspective. I'm really excited [00:39:45] about AI as just to boost developer [00:39:48] productivity, um, kind of being your, your pairing partner, [00:39:51] right. To help. I don't see it nowhere near [00:39:54] anywhere ready to replace developers.

Um, [00:39:57] I see software engineering as an art [00:40:00] computers are very hard with. Being cre creative. [00:40:03] Um, and so, I don't see it from, uh, [00:40:06] oh, hey, we're all gonna lose our jobs to, to ai, [00:40:09] but I really see the value in, um, having [00:40:12] an AI partner that can help, you know, sit with [00:40:15] you and pair with you and, and, and make [00:40:18] recommendations and, you know, help, throw out a bunch of boiler plate code [00:40:21] for you just to increase your productivity, uh, help [00:40:24] you with, you know, writing tests that cover, you know, what needs to [00:40:27] be covered, et cetera.

So. That's what I'm really kind of [00:40:30] excited about is having a, an AI partner that helps [00:40:33] with the, with the pairing aspect. And, and if you think about [00:40:36] that, right, you know, uh, pair [00:40:39] programming has been around for a long time. Think about this. That's two [00:40:42] developers, right? Kind of working through the same [00:40:45] thing.

What if you had they able to take, split those [00:40:48] people up? Pair with, with an ai right now you've [00:40:51] got double the productivity. You've got two developers working on different [00:40:54] things, but they still have a pairing partner to help with the second set of [00:40:57] eyes and, you know, some second, you know, uh, just, as a partner.

So, yeah.

[00:40:59] David: Oh, [00:41:00] that's awesome. I, yeah, it's obviously, when you say it now in [00:41:03] retrospect, I'm like, oh yeah, it is a paraprogramming and AI is [00:41:06] just a natural progression of that when you think about it makes a lot of sense. [00:41:09] Or a, like the rubber duck thing, you know, where you explain your problem to rubber [00:41:12] duck, sit it on your desk.

It's a, a rubber duck that can talk back and [00:41:15] actually help you out, you know, I think 

[00:41:16] Brian: I always joke [00:41:18] like, the reason I don't think AI is anywhere near ready to replace this [00:41:21] is, you know, when you're working with, uh, trying to get [00:41:24] requirements, we can't even get good requirements that humans can [00:41:27] really. Action on a lot of times. And so [00:41:30] imagine, you know, a for AI to be successful, you have to [00:41:33] have a really good set of requirements and be able to [00:41:36] tell it exactly what you need.

And that's just really hard for human [00:41:39] humans to do, is to tell everybody what you know, to tell somebody what [00:41:42] they really need. It's really easy to tell somebody what you don't [00:41:45] like, but it's hard to tell people what you really need. And so until we [00:41:48] can get there, uh, it's, it's, we're we're just not [00:41:51] gonna be there with ai, in my opinion for a while.

But, but as a, as a, [00:41:54] to help with productivity, I, I, I think it's exciting.

[00:41:56] David: That [00:41:57] makes a lot of sense. And it's really all the things you were saying about flutter too. [00:42:00] I, I mean, AI's a progression of that, if you think about flutter as a [00:42:03] way to make your team more productive by having one code [00:42:06] base and simpler sort of things to interface with. [00:42:09] AI is just a natural step in that direction too.

Making your team [00:42:12] more productive.

[00:42:12] Brian: and that's really what I'm as, as you know, as an engineering [00:42:15] leader, that's what you're. That's what really what we're tasked with, right? How, [00:42:18] how can you make the team more productive, whether it's getting rid of some [00:42:21] processes, paperwork, you know, things that, that [00:42:24] slows them down and, and keeps them from like being, [00:42:27] you know, banging out code, which is what they're, what we really pay 'em [00:42:30] to do.

So, um, so yeah. So I'm always looking at it [00:42:33] from the productivity perspective,

[00:42:34] David: That's awesome. Yeah. It [00:42:36] connects with your thing there of like not trying to reduce the team, trying to, [00:42:39] you know, use the team. We have to do more. And so if you've [00:42:42] embraced it that way, it makes a lot of sense. So. Well, thank you so much. This has [00:42:45] been awesome. Really appreciate you telling the story of your [00:42:48] career, but also the experience at, uh, Wendy's, um, making this [00:42:51] transition to flutter and the benefits that come from it.

Where can [00:42:54] people find out more about, uh, you and technology at [00:42:57] Wendy's?

[00:42:58] Brian: Uh, yeah. So you can, uh, either go to [00:43:00] wendy's dot com. we post all of our, job [00:43:03] openings on, on wendy's dot com. And then for me, uh, I'm on [00:43:06] LinkedIn. Uh, you can find me at, Brian Abston. Just search for Brian [00:43:09] Abston. You'll find me.

[00:43:10] David: Alright, fantastic. Well, I [00:43:12] can't thank you enough. This was awesome. Uh, again, stories [00:43:15] that, uh, we really want people to hear and, and see out in the world. 'cause [00:43:18] uh, you know, you're making out making a difference every single day with these [00:43:21] apps and driving business for Wendy's and having a great experience [00:43:24] for your team and your, your leadership and, uh, that's what this is all [00:43:27] about.

[00:43:27] Brian: Yeah, I do, I do wanna, I do wanna add one thing.

Uh, we, we, [00:43:30] we may or may not used, uh, some of these [00:43:33] tools called, uh, very good. just, just FYI. So, uh, [00:43:36] yeah.

So we may have, we may have done a, [00:43:39] uh, the very first thing we did in Flutter may have been a very good, [00:43:42] uh, create using CLI. So just, uh, [00:43:45] I don't know if you know anything about those tools, but that's, that is what, uh, [00:43:48] we

[00:43:48] David: I've heard about them somewhere. I'm I'll. I'll have to go ask the team. Maybe [00:43:51] they've heard of 'em. I don't know.

[00:43:52] Brian: So, yeah, my team wanted to tell you thank you. [00:43:54] And for the contributions that, uh, your company has made to, to [00:43:57] flutter. And they were, they were super excited. I told a couple of folks [00:44:00] that I was gonna be doing this and they were like super excited to, [00:44:03] so, So we appreciate it.

[00:44:04] David: Love to hear it. That's what this is all about. [00:44:06] It's all about raising the tide for all boats and um, you know, [00:44:09] getting the best practices and standards out and helping teams be [00:44:12] successful. So that's why it's awesome to have you come on here and, and [00:44:15] tell your story as well. 'cause I hope that you can go out and [00:44:18] inspire other companies, other leaders, other teams to do this [00:44:21] same work, um, as a result of the success you've had.[00:44:24] 

Awesome. Thanks so much. [00:44:27] [00:44:30] [00:44:33] [00:44:36] [00:44:39] [00:44:42] [00:44:45] 

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